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  #11  
Old 21st June 2007, 11:20 AM
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Default Re: Silver wire - why bother?

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Originally Posted by Ianm2 View Post

to acheive what specifically? a chassis is just the same as a plant pot, just a container, it doesn't matter what its made of, its primary function is to simply hold your stuff, silver would be expensive and offer no benefit here.
Hi-i think that is a bit simplistic.

It seems aluminium chassis dont suffer the magnetic problems of steel chassis and i seem to remember that some "super" versions of well known CD players had copper coated internal panels which it was reconned improved performance.


Philip
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  #12  
Old 21st June 2007, 11:24 AM
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Default Re: Silver wire - why bother?

The copper panels may have been for screening of EMC/EMI either between components or from the outside world. This could have lead to improved performance of the "super" versions of the players.

Rich
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  #13  
Old 21st June 2007, 11:41 AM
Ianm2 Ianm2 is offline
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Default Re: Silver wire - why bother?

I have qualified the statemnt partly, philip, I did say primary role. that alludes to secondary ones.

After having had a marantz cd7, £3500,philips tda 1541, metal transport, solid chassis, copper feet, copper internals, screened cans, and finding it was totally outgunned by my sony £25 dvd player, I gave up on that sort of thing, that partly coloured my view for electronic design as opposed to tarting up
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  #14  
Old 21st June 2007, 12:43 PM
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Default Re: Silver wire - why bother?

Assuming identical design, with just a difference in conductor materials, they sound the same to me -silver is only slightly less resistive than copper after all & it's LC properties hardly alter a jot, so the differences this will cause in the performance of the equipment the wire attach together will be minimal at best. Cable geometry makes more of a difference IMO than the core or dilectric materials used.
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  #15  
Old 21st June 2007, 01:52 PM
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Default Re: Silver wire - why bother?

There is many a true word here. However, in some of the statements, you are not comparing like with like. For example to say that a Marantz CD player with copper chassis is outgunned by a Sony DVD with standard chassis is not proving anything other than the Sony has a better transport. It might just be that the Sony with a copper coated chassis would sound even better.

We can easily demonstrate that the same circuit in an aluminium case sounds better than in a steel case. The reduction in circulating currents, due to magnetic effects, in a steel case can readily be measured. As a result, where cost allows, we use aluminium chassis in WD products. But they don't HAVE to have an aluminium chassis to sound good - they just sound that little bit better when they do.

What we should remember when considering materials:

Hi-Fi equipment is conducting and amplifiying signals of a fairly delicate nature yet the equipment is being bombarded with low frequency Electromagnetic fields, RF, Solar particles, radiation from the Earth's crust, mechanical vibration and all sorts of interference coming from the AC supply that looks horrific.

With all that going on it is hardly surprising that the materials that something carrying the signal is made from is, perhaps, fairly critical to the finer nuances of sound quality.
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  #16  
Old 21st June 2007, 02:08 PM
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Default Re: Silver wire - why bother?

Quote:
We can easily demonstrate that the same circuit in an aluminium case sounds better than in a steel case.
I am more than prepared to believe that, I know things seem to sound better when wood is used instead of steel.

Quote:
The reduction in circulating currents, due to magnetic effects, in a steel case can readily be measured.
Just out of interest, how can this be readily measured?

Quote:
As a result, where cost allows, we use aluminium chassis in WD products.
Err, but you haven't described why reducing circulating current results in better sound, its a bit of a "step 3: profit" process.
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  #17  
Old 21st June 2007, 02:24 PM
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Default Re: Silver wire - why bother?

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Originally Posted by NickG View Post
I am more than prepared to believe that, I know things seem to sound better when wood is used instead of steel.
I'll go with that, my PX4 was wonderful on a wooden breadboard.
Put it in a steel chassis and I was bombarded with allsorts of hum problems.

With my latest amp I'm going to use primarily an alloy chassis.
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  #18  
Old 21st June 2007, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Silver wire - why bother?

Has anyone compared the same design in aluminium versus copper chassis? Copper is difficult to finish well in its natural state. I do have a pair of copper chassis electro-laquered. They look great but are easily damaged. I suppose one could stove enamel a future project as AudioNote and Kondo do.

The reason I'm exploring all these possibilities is because I'm about to embark on a pre/phono combination, probably in the same chassis, but with 2 separate power supplies. I could go through the pain of getting new copper chassis formed. I had wondered about using a copper sheet liner to a wood chassis. Another idea would be to use copper sheet side panels laminated to the inside of outer aluminium 1/4" side panels, with an inner copper base and lid, finally closed with aluminium top and bottom lids. I'm not sure if aluminium and copper will react with one another, either sonically or metal to metal.

I am interested to find out if screening anymore of the signal path internally will be of significant value. In the past I have used metres of unscreened wire internally. I also plan to use silver wire but what style - solid v. litz TBA.

More thoughts welcome.
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  #19  
Old 21st June 2007, 06:30 PM
Ianm2 Ianm2 is offline
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Default Re: Silver wire - why bother?

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Originally Posted by petercom View Post
For example to say that a Marantz CD player with copper chassis is outgunned by a Sony DVD with standard chassis is not proving anything other than the Sony has a better transport. It might just be that the Sony with a copper coated chassis would sound even better.


On the contrary, the marantz has just about the best parts in the book...metal cdm12.1 transport widely held to be the best, tda 1541 dacs, gold crown multibit, saa7220 again, one of the most respected dig filters, discrete shielded analog filters, discrete output stages, inc. balanced, some of the best capacitors...cerafines, oscons, multiple transformers and power supplies, massive chassis, copper coated, solid copper feet. What it proves is that no matter how good the parts, no matter how you tart it up, and put flash bits on, and how expensive the retail, it means you can buy better for less than £100, than you can for £3500, I would have been seriously miffed had I paid full retail for it. One of the persons that trained joe d'applito agreed with me, too. What does it prove? throwing money doesn't work, there are many out there to coax the naive to part with mucho cash with no guaranteed improvement, many a time a step back, stick to the things that matter and give proven results, like transformers, valves, and certain capacitors
the build quality of the sony is laughable to say the least, plasticky resonant transport, no posh feet, plasticky case, switch mode psu giving all sorts of hash, yet it really sounds great. I can't explain why it was so much better. detail, hi freq clarity, purity. it tells me things can still sound naff if you throw money at them on the wrong things, ie if it still sounds naff with them, what's the point of spending money? i hazard a bet many hugely expensive cables are very much like that, in fact I have done that so many times, spent on battleship items only to find the same thing.

my thoughts would moreso be, if SOME of these expensive things can't make something sound good, then they mustn't be any good and don't improve sound

sadly, this sort of debate will run and run, capacitor discussions, cable debates, in 50 yrs people will still be debating them, and spending fortunes in the hope more expensive will sound better. again, I call it largely the cerebral side of things, you listen to the components, and get preoccupied with the next upgrade, rather than simply enjoying the music.

mostly it doesn't apply in this forum tho', as people love music and tweak their amps lovingly, on the things that matter most.

Last edited by Ianm2; 21st June 2007 at 06:57 PM.
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  #20  
Old 21st June 2007, 07:24 PM
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Default Re: Silver wire - why bother?

Who wrote this?

"On the contrary, the marantz has just about the best parts in the book...metal cdm12.1 transport widely held to be the best, tda 1541 dacs, gold crown multibit, saa7220 again, one of the most respected dig filters, discrete shielded analog filters, discrete output stages, inc. balanced, some of the best capacitors...cerafines, oscons, multiple transformers and power supplies, massive chassis, copper coated, solid copper feet. What it proves is that no matter how good the parts, no matter how you tart it up, and put flash bits on, and how expensive the retail, it means you can buy better for less than £100, than you can for £3500, I would have been seriously miffed had I paid full retail for it. One of the persons that trained joe d'applito agreed with me, too. What does it prove? throwing money doesn't work, there are many out there to coax the naive to part with mucho cash with no guaranteed improvement, many a time a step back, stick to the things that matter and give proven results, like transformers, valves, and certain capacitors"

Ah, then I spotted this
"One of the persons that trained joe d'applito agreed with me, too."

Someone who I shall not directly mention but is obviously better than the name dropping I shall use agreed with me.
That must be Ians writing then?
No offence Ian but who is Joe D'applito and who on earth trained him?

Who is this God you keep refering to?
It would help us to understand where you are coming from a little better.

Quote Ian
"my thoughts would moreso be, if SOME of these expensive things can't make something sound good, then they mustn't be any good and don't improve sound"

I've been telling people the same thing for years....

A 300b is as a 211 is................:p
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