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-   -   Newbie guide to SE Vs PP (http://www.world-designs.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=983)

Dave the bass 24th May 2006 10:22 AM

Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
After browsing through Jerry T's ebay SE 3.5 watt amp discovery... and the funny lampooning he's recieved I just wondered...

For me and any other Valve Virgins lurking in Cyberland what are the Pros and Con's of both SE and PP?

I've never heard a SE amp in a Hi Fi scenario ('cos I'm a newbie like I said) but my understanding from reading informative posts both here and in HFW is that SE's are generally low powered using 300B's or 2A3's and are 'fussy' at what impedances they drive into, hence high sensitivity speakers are required but on the upside they sound 'nice'. (I should work on a Hi Fi magazine, my descriptive vocabulary is amazing:D )

PP on the other hand are fairly common, more powerful, less fussy about loads but lacks that SE sound.

Sorry if this has all been done before but I'm sure theres a few others like me out there (ie- clueless:o ).

Dave the bass.

P.S The E-bay Audio-lite Phono Stage project is still at the bread board stage, as soon as the good weather comes I transform into an 'outdoor' guy:rolleyes: i'll finish the build when winter comes around and I'm stuck indoors and can't go out to play on my Skateboard (boo!).

Darren D 24th May 2006 10:34 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Hi Dave,

Describing the difference between PP & SE is very difficult to put into words.

I have heard plenty of both, from simple to some amaizingly complex, including one off Hi-fi diy's to comercial.

The answer is, you need to listen to both and decide for yourself. There are certainly merits of both types and although I personaly prefer SE I wouldn't knock PP at all.

Speakers have a large part to play in the deciding factor. I often wonder if it's the speaker that makes the decision for you....:eek:

Ask around and see if you can't get invited for some friendly demonstations, It's prob the best way. Not much help to you now I know, sorry.

Darren

andrew ivimey 24th May 2006 11:04 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
You've got the basics there Dave but yes it is a bit more complex.

You will have to listen to a few. There must eb someone around / nearby.

Isn't 'The Matrix' down near you? - A HiFi shop which specialises in valve amplifiers.

Greg. 24th May 2006 11:15 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Hi Dave,

Come to Eggfest on 3rd June and you'll hear both.

Best wishes,

Greg

Dave the bass 24th May 2006 11:53 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by andrew ivimey
Isn't 'The Matrix' down near you? - A HiFi shop which specialises in valve amplifiers.

Yeah, its in my home town (Dartford) but I feel its a bit cheeky going in and asking for a demo between PP and SE and then telling them I want to build a WD amp any way:D S'funny actually, I went out on the town last Friday and had a meal and a few Ales with my (long-sufferin') partner and we used the new Fastrack Bus system that stops outside Matrix (great for when i'm old and wrinkly but need a new valve). While waiting for the bus I toddled over to their their shop was droolin' down the window at all the TT and glassy loveliness and nearly missed my bus:o They had a VAA EL34 PP amp for sale up on ebay for £199 a while back, I was sorely tempted. In the end I decided to wait to see the results of WD's new line up.

DTB

Dave the bass 24th May 2006 12:01 PM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg.
Hi Dave,

Come to Eggfest on 3rd June and you'll hear both.

Best wishes,

Greg

Thanks for the invite Greg, its a fair ol' trek up to Eggborough, I've just looked it up:( Bum.

I'll see how we're fixed, it means leaving familly behind without a car for the weekend (again).

Thanks again for the invite, one day I'll meet up with you guys.

DTB

Lord. 25th May 2006 01:44 AM

Opinion on SE vs PP.
 
I recently got my first taste of Push-Pull vs Single-Ended, and it was 'interesting'. ;)

PP amplifier: 300B Directly Heated Triodes, Solid State rectified with 600v power supply and an interstage transformer instead of a valve phase-splitter. It has no feedback and a Class A output of nearly 20W, but it did have to be used with an average valve pre-amplifier.

SE amplifier: 211 Directly Heated Triodes, Valve rectified with 1200v power supply. It too has an output of about 20W but is an integrated amplifier.

The source CD player was an expensive valve output model, and the loudspeakers were medium/high sensitivity two-ways designed with SE amplifiers in mind.

To my mind this was a better PP vs SE contest than most, as both amplifiers have similar output power of 20W (unusual for SE) and use DHTs without feedback (both unusual for PP). Ideally the PP would also be Valve rectified and similar pre-amplification stages used for both, the PP would also welcome some of the boutique components used in the SE!

My host, the chap used to using the SE amplifier was astonished at the quality of the 300B amplifier, and further so when informed that it was a PP (he'd assumed PSE) and that it used SS rectification. I was surprised at the presentation of the 211 amplifier but not at the excellent quality!

We both agreed that the PP amplifier had slightly more 'drive' especially from the mid-range down. We also both agreed that the SE amplifier removed a hint of 'grain' in the upper-mid, he blamed this grain partly on the pre-amplifier and I think it may also have something to do with the cheapish diodes in the PP. I found the high frequencies hard to judge as they were coloured by the omnipresent splash of a dome tweeter. The tone and sound quality of the amplifiers were similar with the SE having the edge, most differences here could be attributed to component differences. What was most noticeable was the difference in presentation ...

Both amplifiers imaged beautifully, with the SE amplifier having the slight edge with a little more forward projection. Chap admired the "cohesive" qualities of the PP amplifier which encouraged listening to the whole piece, I found that the SE amplifier seemed to "spotlight" elements encouraging dissection of a piece. I know that it is possible to dissect with the PP amplifier, and I'm sure that with familiarality the spotlighting of the SE would have seemed less obvious. I liked the effect, I just wished it was spread more around the soundstage and not restricted to the midrange instruments.

I found the 'pace' of both amplifier types different too, the PP had those qualities of drive and grip that could handle any type of music. I tried to trip the SE up in this regard but, being a very good one, it too could handle anything, but quite differently! I know that the following is going to sound weird, but "weird" was my initial comment when feeding the SE some very busy grooves: Whereas the PP pushed out anything given to it without hesitation, the SE seemed to create itself more time to play what it was given. I'll try that differently: The SE didn't sound slow or bad in any way, and although it didn't have the slam of the PP it did give the demanding passages all the attention they needed - it was very weird to hear a slamming piece of music sound great without it having a lot of slam!

To my ears neither SE or PP was wrong - they just had different presentations.
Please note that I was listening to better types of each topology which must have minimised the weaknesses of both. Indeed, I've heard more objectionable differences with Triode PP vs Pentode+Feedback PP than with 300B PP vs 211 SE!

I am not ready to jump into the SE or PP camps with both feet just yet, I'd like a mixture of what they both do well.
So I'll vote for well designed Triode amplifiers implemented beautifully! :p

Paul Barker 25th May 2006 08:00 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Matt, reading down I was just saying yes yes yes, I recognise all those things.

I too think when it comes to amps of that quality it is simply down to preference.

For my money you can build a cheap 6em7 SE amp and get loads of enjoyment, great imaging, some distortion, and masses of distortion overdriven.

Out of interest the 211's were probably gevt4c's. Though these are very solid performers with a silken sound they are rubbish compared to WE Oxide coated 211. Chinease 211's are just wheely bin fodder.

First eggborough I demonstarted the difference in sound between a straight sides px4 a straight sides px25 and a balloon px25. Though not unanimous it was majority approved that each stage was an improvement.

This ytime, though in mono, I shall show the progression from gevt4c to WE211. If someone could bring a chinease 211 we could start with that one (if it doesn't blow up).

Lord. 25th May 2006 08:11 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Thanks Paul,

I thought mine was quite an ambititous write-up given it was my first (3 hour long) experience of SE! This thread coincided nicely with my memory still being fresh, so that was my excuse for writing the above.
:o

And yes, I'm pretty sure that the 211 valves were as you say.

What I left with at the end of the night was a determination to try and play with a wider range of components inside and on top of my amplifier (and a renewed dislike of dome tweeters!)
;)

andrew ivimey 25th May 2006 08:43 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Paul, 'as any fule no' the difference between shuguang 211 and GE vt4c is barkingly obvious but as the dusbin operatives have not yet arrived here this morning I have fished around and found a used but cheerful chinese 211 and am happy to bring it along to help demonstrate 'the progression'.

James D 25th May 2006 08:51 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
For many years I have been frustrated by not being able to get my DHT PP amps to equal the magic in the sound of a DHT SE amp. I think Matt has got it exactly right in his description of the differences netween the two. I would also add that there are differences in the way they handle tone and timbre as well. I listen to cello performances quite a lot and the SE cello is just more naturally woody than a PP cello - this for the best of each type. However there is another aspect of each that I cannot describe and have never heard described which is that certain SE amps have a magic about there sound that is just 'right' and I have never, ever heard a PP amp sound like it. Those a EggFest 1 will have heard it with Jonathan's 45SE amp driving my Quasars... it just makes you smile and lifts your spirit. ANd this followed Mark's Aurora a 300B all IT PP amp. So 20W of the best quality PP watts against 2W of the best quality SE amps in the EggFest hall and it was no contest. One was magical and right and the other was very good but no magic.

It's true that you do need SE friendly speakers to hear what SE is about as they can and do collapse into certain loads but once you have SE friendly speakers then it becomes inevitable that eventually you will come round to SE

I still haven't given up on DHT PP but most of the amps I design and build now-a-days are DHT SE...


James

Greg. 25th May 2006 09:52 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Hi James,

You raise some very good points that generally I agree with, but for many of us there has to be a compromise or trade off so that our amplifier of choice fits all music within the constraints of a domestic environment subject to WAF considerations which is why I am happy with my PP system because it does all things well although I'd acknowledge would not reproduce the cello from Bach's six cello pieces in the magic way you enjoy with SE. Having said that, a judgement on an amps performance really should take into consideration all the types of music the owner wants to listen to. There is a major difference between the magic SE sound of a solo cello and the sound of a full orchestra and choir with organ working at full tilt. The same can be said of simple 'Paul Simon Songbook' vs. full on 'Meatloaf'. My amp/speakers has to do both of those well and I've yet to come across an SE system (amp and speakers) that can handle the heavy stuff and fit in domestically.

This is why I settle in the PP camp. It's the need for a fits all system with the minimum of compromise that is allowed to sit in the living room along with the telly, bunches of flowers and hand made wall tapestries ;)

As ever, we are splitting hairs on sound quality. The average punter would not be able to tell a difference.

Best wishes,

Greg

Dave the bass 25th May 2006 10:13 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Thanks for all the replies fellas.

I think I'm beginning to get the gist of the differences now. It seems from what you all say to me that SE amps are considered a more 'light' sounding choice but the mids are more clearer (?) suiting it to the cello music that James was speaking of. I've seen DHT SE amps referred to as bass-shy (scary being a bassist meself:eek: ) whereas PP (DHT or not?)amps have more 'clout' in the bum-end of things but lack the mid range intensity of SE'ers.

Only my ears will decide in the end which path/s (!) I go down.

I listen mostly to Rock/Pop/Vintage Funk/Disco and Ska. I'm not a classical lover (yet) so maybe a SE amps charms would be lost on me, I dunno. All I do know is that I'm a very fussy sod who really listens intentley to music, it gives me a lot of pleasure.

As ever, thanks for all your help, I really appreciate the help you chaps have given me on this forum.
DTB

James D 25th May 2006 10:17 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Hello Greg,

Agree with what you say, I couldn't get SE to deal with Mahler's 8th (my favorite symphonic piece and with a huge choir!) or Handel's Messiah until I made the Quasars. It's all about system balance and WAF. I had to make the Quasars out of Perspex to get Ally to accept them. That doubled the price! But now they rock and handle anything. Normal speakers and I would still be running DHT PP - no doubt.

I'm a child of the 60s & 70s so Hendrix, Deep Purple, Cream, Who, SRV (okay 80s), etc. etc. form my non classical listening. Yeah! My systems has to rock!

James

James D 25th May 2006 10:30 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Dave,

I'm a bass player too... SE isn't lighter than PP on the right speakers. You have to build your system to suit all of the components you would like to use. So an SE amp to drive a typical hifi speaker is possible but it needs to be designed for the tas and it gets expensive. But then a proper 300B PP amp gets expensive too... For me I wanted to get away from the compromises that a typical box speaker has... so I went in a different direction and live with some different compromises that to my ears are not so important .. 'cos they are size related instead :)

SE amps can rock just as hard as PP. What about Dave Dove's 300BXLS amp at EggFest2 on my speakers? They rocked hard with super bass.

You have to build the system to suit - and if you want SE and fast deep bass then you need to pick your speakers to suit...

OK this will get contentious now :-) Dave, as a bass player, you know how hopeless almost all domestic speakers are at capturing the tone of your instrument? At reproducing the differences that using plectrum or your finger makes to he bass note itself i.e. not the higher harmonics? Well thats the problem with typical hifi speakers and why I left them behind. I want to hear the timbre change between a Jazz and a Precision clearly not just a different type of thud from the speakers but all the differences in tone and timbre. I want to hear the difference between nylon strings and steel helical wound strings... I want to hear the difference between a fretless and a fretted bass... thats why I ended up with an SE amp driving my Quasars... cello shows it up best but any bass electric or acoustic shows it up to a bass player...

James

Lord. 25th May 2006 10:35 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Greg,
The SE system I heard could 'rock' and was only marginally less domestically acceptable than my own, but it is far, far out of my (or 99% of us for that matter) financial reach.
So in principle I agree with you and JamesD. I like my three way 'speakers and accept that to drive their 88dB/W/m and slightly lumpy load I need more than a few Watts, to get those affordably means PP for me.

DaveTheBass,
Given your handle and musical tastes, I'm guessing that PP will be for you too - unless you are seriously minted! Just remember that not all PP amplifiers are created equal, the choice of output valves and the use (or preferably not) of feedback will have nearly as big an effect on your sound as the SE/PP choice.
Oh, and in case you haven't read between the lines above, you can't choose any valve amplifier without realising how reliant they are on a kind pair of 'speakers. PP will tolerate mildly difficult loads, SE will not.
Good luck, it will be fun!

Dave the bass 25th May 2006 10:57 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
This is all great info:D

Yep, in my experience generally domestic speakers are crud for 'raw' bass guitar, after all it's not what they were designed for, on the otherhand I used to gig with what was effectivley 2 VERY large Hi Fi cabinets fed with a PP amp using 12 x 6L6's, each cabinet had 1x15", 1x10", 2x6" and 1x Bullet horn...it was a massive sound. TBH it was too much:o I connected the speakers up to my HiFi once and it sounded horrible! But it was great for raw uncompressed Bass Guitar. I use pick, fingers and thumb (I'm an old slapper, easy tiger!)

I now use a SWR Super redhead which is 2x10" speakers + horn in a reflex cabinet with an identical 2x10" extention I use on bigger gigs.

Back on thread...:o

Any amp that I build/buy will have to work with my Rogers Studio 1a's until funds become available to to upgrade them. I've lived with them for years (they're my friends!!!). I'm not 'minted' as you've probably guessed, hence the trusty SS Rotel from '78 is still inservice.

I know its gonna be fun, I'm looking forward to finishing off my Phono stage project when winter comes back.

DTB

NickG 25th May 2006 01:10 PM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
I have been thinking about this, I wonder if the question had been asked two years ago, the answer would have been a lot simpiler, The difference in sound between (for example) a WAD 6550 and WAD 300b PSE was clear and obvious, but since that time people around here are been working at getting both types of amps to sound "better". SET's have been getting better power supplies, and driver stages, and PP amps have been getting better phase splitters and power supplies, and having feedback reduced or removed.

So while I still think there is a difference, I think its a lot less now than it once was. We can see at the eggfest, but I still think my 211 SET has as much "drive" as a 300b PP, but I am more than happy to admit that its far less domestically practical :-)

Having said that, I still think the 6em7 sounds as good as anything else I have heard, ok maybe not Jono's 45.

Really Aardvark 25th May 2006 05:14 PM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Another bass player here (Peavey TMax head, 1x15,2x10+horn) - I can recommend the Kat6550. I switched from Sugden amps, supposedly super-musical, and the difference is as clear as night & day. If you want to hear exactly what our colleagues are doing its a must!

No doubt the more experienced here will be able to suggest alternatives until maybe WD resurrect the kit.

Dave the bass 25th May 2006 08:58 PM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
What is it with Valve Hi Fi and us bassists:)

Peavey, yum! I've still got my first ever rack effects unit, a Peavey Bassfex sitting here. Nice stuff.

My big old beast was a Mesa Boogie bass 400+ with 2 x 1516 BE Cabs, they're the Electrovice loaded versions. Monster:D

Thanks for the advice today everyone, I'm still leaning towards a spot of DIY (specially as I work in the Electronics Trade). Such a pity I missed all the WAD kits but I just wasn't into the Hi Fi thang then, looks like I missed out on some good kits but hey, WD are just about to release a new kit, I'll dig the new breed as they say:cool:

DTB

Dave the bass 25th May 2006 09:03 PM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Just to follow on, do any of you know of any good websites explaining the history of various valves and their back grounds? I know the 300B and 2A3 are held in high regard as they were specifically designed for high quality audio reproduction.

Any suggestions were I could learn/browse more in depth info on this new fangled 'netterweb':rolleyes:

DTB

pre65 25th May 2006 09:14 PM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Hi Dave-i am so fed up of not understanding how valves work that i have just ordered the two books by Morgan Jones,from Amazon.
So this time next week i will be an "expert":D :D

Philip

Paul Barker 25th May 2006 09:44 PM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Dave, history of 2a3 started with 45. 45 is half a 2a3 in original form. They wanted more power than 45 but couldn't make a biggere more powerful valve so they stuck two 45 structures inside the same glass envelope parrallel connected it all out at the base. These are now known as dual plate 2a3's. Then they managed to obtain those characteristics reliably with a single structure, this became known as the mono plate 2a3. These type of valves were commonall garden table top radio valves.

I think 300b, which is a souped up version of the above was aimed at the bigger commercial sector like theatres, Westeren Electric theatre amps.

In the UK Western Elec are known as STC (Standard Comunication and cables). All WE valves are available as stc equivalents with a prefix 4 to the number.

List member Darren D had a pair of STC 4300a's. These are the forrunners of the 300b, the Japanese pay an absolute fortune for this valve. Darren and I played them, they were quite good, but give me a balloon px25 any day.

300b's often got used as series pass regulators because of reliability.

45's used by US military as fuses.

45's are still very available very cheap, go figure. They sound better than 2a3 and 300b, but power output limited.

Cheapest route into this is the 6.3v variants of 2a3 structure, 6a3 and 6b4g (IO base). Also Svetlana 2a3 is a bargain.

British similarr valve is px4, Europian Ad1, both mono plates. Indirectly heated version 6a5g, r120, will cost you more than a dht version because of rarity, sound very good I have two 6a5g's, wouldn't part with.

We made the 300b as a 4300.

Our px25 has not been copied, it isn't like a 300b in any way shape or form.

Mesh plate valves have always been made, and do sound better. The Chinease and others have cottoned onto this they make current production punched sheet metal anode valves to try and emulate the mesh plate. They call it a mesh plate. These do generally sound quite good, but are more expensive.

There's a little history of useable dht's. There are lower powered ones, and higher powered ones but those are the common useful range ones.

Paul Barker 25th May 2006 09:51 PM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Philip Morgan Jones is a nice bloke and writes brilliant books but he is heavily in the pp camp. Just worth bearing in mind whilst reading, nothing much there for scratch build se.

vt52 website used to be best resource for se but it's hardly changed ever.

Basically those of us into se keep it to ourselves, we're board with all the discussions and just quietly get on with doing it.

Greg. 25th May 2006 10:16 PM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Hi Paul,

Thanks for the breakdown above which has enlightened me. I notice you didn't dis the 300B this time although I think you've previously said that you're less anti 300B with some of the more recent offerings. The meshplate thing is worth talking about. There is a perception that a meshplate option of a 300B is the way to go, and I'm not talking about the punch plates you refer to as with the Chinese Valve Arts option. DIY Hi-Fi Supply (and others) provide a true meshplate version as made by TJ. These sound exceedingly good, but from research, they don't like optimum dissipation. 40W is a non starter and actually the sellers recommend for longevity 18W which is significantly lower. Frequently the affordable Electro harmonix 300B Gold has produced very acceptable sound with dissipation around 30W on test. I and many others are settled with this valve in our amps.

Best wishes,

Greg

Paul Barker 26th May 2006 07:56 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
My early experinece of the 300b was tainted with my lesser ability to build a good amp, but it is a very difficult valve to make sound linear. They may be making them better too. I still generally avoid it, some prejudices are hard to shake. Push pull treatement seems to find a way round it's faults, as does the AIkido. Maybe it's more susceptible to power supply problems which is why it can be *rap in SE.

Dave the bass 26th May 2006 09:42 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Barker
Basically those of us into se keep it to ourselves, we're board with all the discussions and just quietly get on with doing it.

Sorry I didn't mean to re-start any long longstanding feuds:o I'm just a newbie with a thirst for knowledge.

Looks like maybe I should buy the Morgan Jones books Philip Pre-65 mentioned, I don't want to be responsible for starting a 'scrap' on a forum I've only just joined;)

DTB

James D 26th May 2006 10:37 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Dave,

You won't start a scrap here, we're almost civilised here :) Or rather there are some very mature and civilised grown-ups here who keep a lid on the rest of us opinionated, egotistical knowalls..

A brilliant source of old valve books is Pete Milletts. Your a techie so you'll like it :)

And ask away - someone will know the answers or how to get them

James

Oh I use a H&K BassForce XXL (15" + piezo horn) and a homemade 2*12tc.

I play a Dean NT Razor as I like small, light bases :)

Dave the bass 26th May 2006 10:51 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Another bassist...on a Hi Fi Forum.

No wonder I've developed a taste for Thermionic Audio, its genetic:D

...its useless to resist the power!!!

Ta for the website tip off. Thats just what I need, some of the techie stuff is way beyond me, I need to start off at the beginning hence my request for website pointers on the history of key valves used in audio reproduction.

Cheers again,

DTB

JerryT 26th May 2006 08:47 PM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Hi

I can understand that lead guitarists will be too deaf to appreciate decent sound and drummers too challenged ;) - but are the only musicians in this thread really bass guitarists (no offence intended). How odd:confused: ? No woodwind or brass - both really interesting tonaties to reproduce. Are we further from nirvana than we hope? :o


Otherwise I share Dave's curiousity about valves, and wonder if anyone will suggest a real reference.

Jerry:D

prince of darkness 26th May 2006 09:14 PM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
I play mainly guitar, also a little bass and harmonica (not at the same time). All badly:( , but I enjoy it anyway, so who cares:D .

vitalstates 26th May 2006 09:22 PM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Hi Philip, Dave

If you're looking for a good newby read I can recommend Jim lesurf(prof)

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jcgl/Sc...rt1/page1.html

also

The rosenblit book is a corker if you want to know how the little devils work.

Ed

Dave the bass 3rd June 2006 11:04 PM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
In answer to my own question I found this...

http://home.comcast.net/~enghenry/diy/taste.pdf

..is a 'gourmet guide' to Thermionic Fun!

DTB

NickG 4th June 2006 12:51 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Quote:

If you're looking for a good newby read I can recommend Jim lesurf(prof)
Just remember that Jim doesn't seem to think there are any real advantages at all to using valves.

I think we may have bent a few SE/PP assumptions at eggfest today...

IMHO, get Morgan Jones, and go from there.

James D 6th June 2006 07:32 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
As a PP man I hate to admit that the SE bass was more tuneful and just as fast and deep at EggFest.

Gregs system was rollng out the organ nicely and showing what 300B PP does so well...

but when you add in bass tone and timbre then SE is just more natural even in the bass - so maybe I'm no longer a PP man. Of course this is speaker dependent and my comments are with my Quasars.

What was interesting was using Robs hybrid amp. Bipolar frontend valve driver and mosfet output stage. One quickly adjusted to the difference in presentation and then noticed that there was more a little more bass weight with this amp but it lacked a little texture compared to SE. A really nice hybrid amp and very nice to live with.

James

Paul Barker 6th June 2006 07:41 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
You about early aswell. I wish we could have put the 65 watt se amp on your speakers.

I missed the hybrid.

Not enough time in a single day when you arrive late because the most important thing in the world at home is the family holliday. (bottle up 10 family hollidays compress just the enjoyment parts jump in the bottle and you'll not be able to see the ovberflowing satisfaction from a half hour at eggborough in the jar next to you.)

Max N 6th June 2006 08:22 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Paul, you are a poet :-)

Dave the bass 6th June 2006 08:53 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NickG
I think we may have bent a few SE/PP assumptions at eggfest today...

IMHO, get Morgan Jones, and go from there.

Thanks Nick,

I keep seeing various Morgan Jones books on Valve amps come up on the Flea-bay but I'm always beaten, they really go for quite big dosh sometimes (for a book).

I SO wished I was 'Festing' with you chaps with the all the Eggy goodness of PP/SE but it wasn't to be. As I said familly things got in the way, my Dad wasn't expected survive this weekend and it would have been inappropiate for me to be away TBH. As it goes he died 3.30AM today. Not unexpected but I just couldn't leave my own kids/partner and Mum/Sis to 'come and play' with you guys.

Next Eggfest you'll have a fully fledged newbie with my 'Lite-audio' Valve Phono stage to put up with if you've got the space, I'll wear a name-badge so you know who the little 40 y/o long-haired hippy is:D

DTB

James D 6th June 2006 09:23 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Dave,

Sorry to hear of the loss of your father. Our thoughts are with you.

James

Dave the bass 6th June 2006 09:31 AM

Re: Newbie guide to SE Vs PP
 
Thanks James D,

Most the greiving was done yesterday, it was 'orrible, I just need to get on with 'stuff' now.

Ta for your thoughts,

DTB


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